Swami Chakrapani is the current President of Hindu Mahasabha of India which was formed in India in 1915 in the aftermath of the formation of the All India Muslim League in 1906, and the British government’s creation of separate Muslim electorate under the Morley-Minto reforms of 1909, to protect the rights of the Hindu community members. In 2015, Swami Chakrapani was in the news when he bought and burnt to smithereens, the car belonging to India’ most wanted terrorist Dawood Ibrahim- fugitive number 3 on the FBI’s Most Wanted List of Fugitives.

Swami Chakrapani burning the car of FBI’s Most Wanted Fugitive-Dawood Ibrahim

1. Manish Uprety: Namaste Swami ji. The whole world is shocked about the cowardly slaughter of the Indian soldiers in Uri by the Pakistani terrorists. What is your reaction?

Swami Chakrapani: Namaste Uprety ji. Hindu Mahasabha severely condemns terrorism which has now afflicted the whole world. I always maintained that any nation like Pakistan which was created on the ideology of apartheid and hate for others would not only fail but would also create immense problems for others. Only an extremely naïve person would have been surprised when it was reported that the US forces found and killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan next to a heavily guarded military cantonment. The Pakistani establishment was fully complicit in creating the support structure for Osama bin Laden.

What better can one expect from Pakistan which has made terrorism an official policy of the state for many decades? Though India has been its primary victim, other countries in region are also suffering immensely because of the acts of the Pakistanis. Almost every major international terrorist attack in the world including 9/11 has a Pakistani link. I am not surprised that after the Uri attack, Pakistan’s Supreme Court Chief Justice Anwar Zaheer Jamali confessed that some political parties in Pakistan are supporting terrorists for their own interest.

One need not know nuclear physics to forecast that global nuclear terrorism would be the next in the line from Pakistan- to know about the nuclear smuggling activities of the notorious Pakistani Abul Qadeer Khan are enough. I can see the writing on the wall that the whole world is in a serious threat.

The US, UK, France, Russia, China, Germany, Japan etc. have severely condemned the Pakistan sponsored terrorist attack in Uri, and have expressed solidarity with India. It is high time for the international community to come together and work towards developing a collaborative approach to counter terrorism and boycott countries that sponsor it. Pakistan as everyone knows is the Chancellor of the Global University of Terrorism.

2. Manish Uprety: Swami ji, you make some very strong observations against Pakistan and its involvement in international terrorism. How could the international community be so oblivious to it? I must say that this apathy of the international community is to a degree of fault, and has the potential to de-stablise the global peace and order.

Swami Chakrapani: You have been a diplomat yourself and perhaps know the reason better than I do as you have seen how the system works from the close quarters. Dealing with the bureaucracy is a battle in itself which causes delays while one tries to address very serious and important issues. Someone once quipped that a civil servant is a like a dud rocket which does not work and the one government cannot fire.

That FBI lead a counterintelligence operation and an espionage investigation against Robin Raphael, the US Assistant Secretary of State for her links with Pakistan is a common knowledge. F.B.I. agents raided her home and office in 2014, looking for evidence that she was spying for Islamabad. Then there is the case of Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai, the executive director of the Washington D.C. based Kashmiri American Council (KAC), who was arrested by the FBI in 2011, for illegal lobbying efforts and to influence the US government, with the undisclosed funding from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

Many a time it happens that things are so manifest in the material world that one cannot see them. Let me give you the example of one of the most highlighted international issue-Palestine. Not many would know that Pakistan acted as a mercenary and killed tens of thousands of Palestinians in Jordan from 1967 to 1970 under General Zia ul Haq who was a Brigadier then, and later became the President of Pakistan. Zia was awarded with Jordan’s highest honour for his services rendered. But is the killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians by Pakistanis in common knowledge of the world- No. How shall one term it- Outsourcing for Murder- perhaps first of its kind in the world.

Your magazine is from Chile. You know that the unlawful killings and human rights violations in Chile under the military dictatorship of General Augusto Pinochet from 9/11 of 1973 to 1990 is a big issue which is being addressed by Chile. But why it is not the same with the lives of Palestinians killed by Zia ul Haq in Jordan? It is something for the relevant authorities and the international community to look into.

It is alleged that almost 3 million people from Bangladesh were killed by Pakistan in 1971, then there are repeated instances of human rights abuses in the Pakistan occupied part of Indian Kashmir, and in the Sindh and Balochistan regions of Pakistan. Of both, Balochistan takes the cake as Pakistan annexed an independent country which was into existence before Pakistan gained independence on the 14^th August 1947.

More recently, Bangladesh and Afghanistan also asked Pakistan to shun its involvement in terrorist activities in their respective territories. But these two countries like India are still developing and have hungry mouths to feed, and need resources to meet the development targets for their peoples. Therefore one is not surprised when one finds that India’s advocacy at international levels is lacking whereas Pakistan’s zeal is fired by its fanaticism.

I remember the story of Lord Sri Krishna and Shishupal where the Lord had promised Shishupal’s mother that he will forgive one hundred sins of her son. And with the hundred and first sin, Shishupal’s bucket finally fell down. This is the prime of Kaliyuga, I can only hope that the concerned authorities both in India and at international level take a serious note of Pakistan and look into the issue in a diligent manner. Else, a spark neglected shall burn the whole house sooner or later.

Though in the US, Congressman Ted Poe, who is also the Chairman of the House Subcommittee on Terrorism, and Congressman Dana Rohrabacher have introduced the bill- H.R 6069- to designate Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism. There are also news reports that the European Parliament’s vice president Ryszard Czarnecki has said the European Union may impose economic and political sanctions on Islamabad if Pakistan fails to stop human rights violation in Balochistan. Pakistan never gave a damn and has gotten away with its nefarious activities so far.

One can only wait and see how it goes, and hope that other countries realise the imminent danger to the world from Pakistan and follow the stance taken by the US’s legislators and declare Pakistan as a terrorist state.

3. Manish Uprety: I do confess that what you say is very overwhelming. The current United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Prince Zeid Ra’ad Zeid Al-Hussein is from Jordan. The person played a central role in the establishment of the International Criminal Court, and was also elected the first president of the Assembly of State Parties of the International Criminal Court in September 2002.

The dead cannot cry out for justice. It is a duty of the living to do so for them. I am sure that Zeid Al-Hussein would look into the issue of the killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians by the Second Division under its commander Zia ul Haq in Jordan during 1967-1970.

Coming back to our conversation, you bought the car of the most wanted international terrorist Dawood Ibrahim last year and set it on fire. Why did you do that? It was big news then but there was and is a serious threat to your life from Dawood and his henchmen.

Swami Chakrapani: Only an ignorant one is afraid of death. It is a natural process that one has to pass through any way, whether one likes it or chooses to close one’s eyes. It is a reality- both subjective and objective.

Though I am a Sanyasi and have denounced the material world long back, I firmly believe that I have a responsibility towards the society and its betterment. What Dawood Ibrahim did was not only a crime against the nation but also a crime against the humanity. To kill innocent people is amongst the most heinous crimes that one can commit against humanity. The person is on the FBI’s most wanted list of terrorists, and continues to live in a safe haven provided by Pakistan.

As far as your question is concerned, I believe that there is a significant lack of action in policy framework, initiatives and also in the symbolism in our fight against terrorism. How many people actually came on streets in Kashmir or in the metros to mark and pay respect to the supreme sacrifice of our soldiers in Uri, when you compare it with the crowd that gathers to support the people involved in anti-national activities and talk about the human rights of the terrorists. Where are they hiding now or is their sympathy selective?

My act to set Dawood Ibrahim’s car on fire was deliberate and symbolic, and was done to inspire the people of India to join our effort to counter terrorism and anti-nationalists. It is important that citizens are not scared of terrorism but be ever ready and face the challenge successfully in order to overcome it. Each citizen is like a soldier in our battle against terrorism. It needs a collaborative approach by our society. Look at the state of Israel and how it faces severe threats and challenges to its very existence almost on a daily basis. We can learn from their experiences.

4. Manish Uprety: I must congratulate you on your stance against terrorism. However, whenever the name of Hindu Mahasabha comes up, the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi comes into the picture. The topic was also in the news and media very recently. As you are the president of the Hindu Mahasabha, what is your opinion on the subject?

Swami Chakrapani: A Hindu condemns violence of any kind whether it is against animals, humans, society or nature. Let me give you an example-the practice of mass animal sacrifice in the Gadhimai Festival of Nepal was stopped when the issue was highlighted in the international media. A Hindu by his very nature and because of the nature of the Hindu society is compassionate and is open to reason. That is why Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s appeal to the Hindu society to immerse Ganesha statues in buckets at home rather than in water bodies which pollute the environment found easy acceptance with the people. I am sure that people will listen to the reason and adapt. But a similar change would be very difficult to bring in the society of Bangladesh or Pakistan, and the streets would be filled with animal blood next year like they did in this month’s Eid al-Adha, as was reported in the media.

Though there was a group of Indian Muslims in Lucknow who cut a cake instead of sacrificing a goat this year. Kindness and compassion are essential traits of the Indian society and most people are open to reason. That is why when our Prime Minister Narendra Modi talks of development, he talks of development of 125 million Indians irrespective of their caste, creed or religion. Our approach has essentially been inclusive.

A few days back, I was reading an article on archaeology which said that the people of Indus Valley Civilization lived without war, weapons or inequality. Peace exists deep down in our very DNA but you have to keep in mind the immense suffering we Hindus had to undergo because of the foreign invaders. Our temples were desecrated, destroyed and looted by the Muslim invaders time and again. Genocide on immense scale was conducted that does not find mention in our history books. There is Hagia Sophia and Temple Mount in India as well which were forcibly converted to Mosques. Next time when you visit the Qutub Minar in New Delhi, I ask you to stand in front of the famed Iron Pillor that also has an inscription by the Emperor Chandragupta-II and witness it for yourself. It is something that our left-leaning institutional historians refuse to acknowledge and make us turn a blind eye towards our own history.

As far as your question is concerned about the role of Hindu Mahasabha in the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi, I would tell you that those were extremely turbulent and bloody times. Initially Gandhi had said that the partition of India would not happen. After the call of “Direct Action Day” by the Muslim League in August 1946, millions of Hindus and Sikhs were slaughtered mercilessly in Bengal, Punjab and other parts of India by Muslims. Then the partition of the country happened in 1947 and Pakistan was created. Soon Pakistan launched a military attack on India and captured a significant chunk of the Kashmir region. Gandhi started a hunger strike against sending of troops to Kashmir after the Pakistani invasion as pacifism was his chosen way to protest.

I reiterate that those times were very overwhelming and were capable to shake and stir anyone deep down to one’s core. We all know that human beings deep down are emotional species and are capable of acting in a very extreme and unpredictable manner. Take the case of Abraham Lincoln in the US or the assassination of Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguard to avenge Operation Blue Star or earlier this year when a black man Micah Xavier Johnson shot dead five police officers in Dallas, US during the Black Lives Matter protests to avenge shooting of innocent black people by the US police.

Protest of an individual against what one perceives as atrocities of an individual, institution or people who have become institutions can take very extreme forms. I think the same applies to the Nathuram Godse, though he provides his perspective on the decision to take such an extreme measure in his testimonies in the court during his trials which are well documented and available for the public consumption. I would also like to share that the pleas for commutation of Godse’s death sentence were made by Mahatma Gandhi’s two sons, Manilal Gandhi and Ramdas Gandhi, which were turned down by the then India’s Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru.

That said, I would strongly underline the fact that dialogue and non-violence are the best way to secure lasting peace between peoples, and that the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi is an important chapter in our nation’s history which should be strictly looked into the context of India’s independence and through the developments of the time. People associated with Hindu Mahasabha also lost their lives during the time- Lala Lajpat Rai ji was killed by the British and Swami Shradhhanand ji was assassinated by the Muslims. The list is endless. However, the nation is supreme. Experience tells us that a nation can though learn from the past yet cannot live in the shadows of the past forever, if it were to progress.

5. Manish Uprety: I must say that it is an issue that is very overwhelming and can make anyone feel bushed. Ah……the experiences of a human being and that of a nation……

Another issue which concerns India and is boldly highlighted in the international media is Cow vigilantism by the so called Gau-rakshaks.

Swami Chakrapani: Cow or Gau has always played a very important role in our country, our society and its culture and traditions since time immemorial and continues to do so. Though there are people and parties with vested interest who try exploit the very issue for their selfish gains and petty interests.

I would give you an idea of the bigger picture and how Cow can play an important role in the socio-economic development of our nation. India’s budgetary subsidy on chemical fertilizers in the year 2015 was around INR 500,000 million. You would agree that it is a significant amount which can be saved and used for other development activities by the government if we start using cow manure in agriculture instead of chemical fertilizers. The health of the agricultural land or what one calls as soil health is a very important issue, and let me make it clear that fertilizer subsidies are actually doing more harm of the farmers and of the nation. Can it be undone? Yes. If you want to see it yourself you should visit the Kaneri region of Kolhapur in Maharashtra that has shifted away from chemical fertilizers and pesticides. It is actually good for the farmer, society and the nation. It is all about communicating the matter to the people effectively, and I am sure they would listen to the reason, like any person does.

Sikkim is India’s first organic state and Denmark would soon be the world’s first country which shall be organic. The insane use of urea in the aftermath of the so called 1970s Green Revolution has not only polluted but also poisoned our agricultural land. The pollutants have entered our food chain and their impact is seen in the widespread diseases such as cancer that affect our people. The Malwa region in Punjab is called the ‘Cancer Belt of India.’ Please bear in mind that Punjab was the region which was the focal point during Green Revolution, and now its affects are there for everyone to see. It is high time that we shift to organic agriculture, and focusing on our cattle including Cow would be a prudent strategy with immense societal benefits.

Also the question that you had asked has a few dimensions. There are certain mischievous elements in any society who benefit by creating social strife. Cow vigilantism is an example which falls into the category. It is an issue which can be easily addressed by having a robust law and order situation in any state. However, we lag in police reforms and it affects our society drastically at various levels. The authorities need to look into it on an immediate basis.

The second aspect of your question deals with the international media. Whether it is New York Times or the BBC- their bias against India is well documented. For every documentary like “India’s Daughter” that the BBC makes, questions should be asked to them – why hasn’t the voracious British paedophile Raymond Varley – who ran a paedophile ring that sexually abused and tortured hundreds of children in a Goa orphanage in the 1980’s and 90’s – been extradited to India? There is an Extradition Treaty between India and the UK which provides the very mechanism. It seems that the biases of western nations and their institutions towards India are very hard to change and they continue to associate India with Caste, Cow, Curry and Karma rather that think of it as a country that undertook the most cost-effective space mission to Mars.

But just like any other rational and thinking society, we have to recognize and realise well that all the Bhartiyas are one, and that no one else would come to our help. If we want to make our country prosperous, we have to be confident and work together to address various challenges that mar our society. The change towards betterment shall come from within us.

6. Manish Uprety: You make a very interesting point about the Green Revolution and how it affected India drastically. India is a very old civilization. Why don’t local ideas take root in the country and find application?

Swami Chakrapani: Well, India was exploited for many centuries, first by the Islamic invaders and then by the Europeans. Though India is the only continuing civilization in the world, our repeated conquest by the foreigners has affected the self esteem and confidence of many of our people. Many developed a tendency to look outward for the solutions to our problems rather than searching for them locally or developing our own capacities. The leaders of the time chose to emulate blindly which had a long term disastrous effects on our nation.

If the so called Fair & Lovely fairness cream’s miracle could affect the complexion of a person in any way, a significant chunk our population would have been much paler. The way Fair & Lovely failed aspiration of many in India, so did the pursuit of Fabian Socialism chosen by Jawaharlal Nehru by our political leaders. How could an ideology which is fundamentally flawed and failed everywhere else in the world succeeded in India. But its toll on our society was tremendous and we lagged behind even in the basic areas. I recommend people to read an academic paper by Swaminathan Aiyar titled “Socialism Kills: The Human Cost of Delayed Economic Reform in India,” which deals with the issue in a comprehensive manner.

It killed our ecosystem, it killed our rivers, and it killed our people. For example when we were in school, we read about the Aral Sea in the Soviet Union. However the Communist model of development followed by the USSR had a very drastic impact on it, and the once mighty Aral Sea has now become smaller than a lake. It all happened within a few decades and is there for everyone to see. In the Indian context, the affect of making dams can be seen of the disappearing of our rivers whether it is the Holy Ganga or the river Yamuna in Delhi which is almost dead. Human beings should act consciously and responsibly rather than blindly emulating.

The pursuit of knowledge has always been the highest goal for any person in our culture. In the present century, we realized that unlike the Marxian thought, knowledge is the actually the key driver for the betterment of any society. Therefore, I would suggest that we should start exploring our local knowledge resources and traditions for our own betterment. We have to be the agent of positive change that we wish to see. The pursuit of Integral Humanism which is a synthesis of the material and the spiritual, the individual and the collective, would be the key for the success of our peoples. It shall help make our nation a de-centralised polity and self-reliant economy with the prosperous village as the base.

7. Manish Uprety: Nueva Diplomacia is based in Chile. What is your message and that of Hindu Mahasabha to our readers?

Swami Chakrapani: As a community Hindus are very peaceful and forgiving people. Peace, tolerance, respect for others and forgiveness are an inherent part of our culture. One can judge it by the behavior of the Indian Diaspora which has become an integral part of whichever country it went to and making a positive contribution for the betterment of the society thay chose to become a part of. We have very good relations with countries like Britain or Portugal who once colonized and exploited India.

Can the same be said of the Muslim Diaspora from Pakistan? Almost every terrorist attack whether in US, Europe and now also in Saudi Arabia has a Pakistani link. You have to question-Why?

Hindu Mahasabha came into existence essentially as a reaction against the Islamofascism of the Muslim League which was also patronized by the British who in their desire to divide our citizens on the basis of religion created a separate electorate for the Muslims under the so called Morley-Minto reforms in 1909. This started a very dangerous precedent which resulted in the division of India in 1947 which was based on the religious lines.

Its negative effects continue even after the partition such as in Kashmir where the Sunni Wahabi Muslim majority of the valley committed the genocide of Kashmiri Hindus and made them a refugee in their own land. One sees ISIS flags in the Kasmhir Valley waved by the Muslim separatists and Kashmiri terrorists like Burhwan Wani of Hizbul Mujahideen who swear allegiance to the Islamic state and its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and all their perverted and murderous ideology to establish an Islamic Caliphate.

The land of Kashmir actually belongs to the Hindus as it was a renowned centre of Shaivsim in the past. But genocidal decimation of the local Hindus by Muslims and capturing of their lands has been happening for centuries and not yet abated. This has made Hindu a minority in his own land. It resonates well with what Ayn Rand said- Today, racism is regarded as a crime if practiced by a majority—but as an inalienable right if practiced by a minority. I would add, more so in functioning democracies of the world across the continents. Politicians should get over their mindset that has only vote based politics on their minds and start working for their peoples instead.

India is our Motherland and the land of our Gods and forefathers- the land of our religion, sacred texts and culture. It is very unfortunate that the international community refuses to see and acknowledge what the Hindu Mahasabha foresaw way back at the start of the last century. Though in the recent past, Europe, Russia, America and China have also awakened to the serious problems caused and created by Islamo-fascism and terrorism but India has been its victim for centuries. How to address the situation in the present context is a big challenge in itself when the world leaders don’t even acknowledge the issue of terrorism. Even the United Nations has failed to define ‘terrorism’ till date.

Therefore it becomes a very serious issue and needs support and collaboration from every quarter, if we are to wage a war and win in our endeavour against terrorism.

8. Manish Uprety: Dhanyawad Swami ji. It was a very interesting experience to interact with you. I thank you on behalf of Nueva Diplomacia.

Swami Chakrapani: Dhanyawad Uprety ji. I hope your magazine spreads awareness about the serious issues that affect all of us. Awareness is the first step, which culminates into action subsequently.

I hope that the international community awakens to the scourge of terrorism and takes a collective action against it so that the peoples of the world can live in peace and harmony.

I extend my greetings to your readers and wish them peace and bliss.

Om Shanti Shanti !

*DISCLAIMER* Nueva Diplomacia does not take any responsibility for the views and opinions expressed in the interview which belong solely to the interviewee.